Slotback radar questions

In the manual, chapter 4, figure 3, it shows that the MiG-29S can engage two targets simultaneously. It also shows that it is a different type radar than the Su-27, using a different type antenna. As I understand it, the versions of the slotbacks used by the 29 and 27 are so similar as to be impossible to tell apart on the F-15 TEWS.

So, the questions are, can the 29S engage two targets and does the difference in radar antenna make no difference in the ability of TEWS to tell them apart? Or is the manual wrong?

The problem is that there is some uncertainty into exactly how this 'engagement of two targets' is mechanized. In other words there is some uncertainty as to wether this capability is real at all.

ED doesn't have the TAC manual for the 29-S?

What about the difference in antennae?

It also shows that it is a different type radar than the Su-27, using a different type antenna.

Are you sure you're not looking at the F-15C antenna?

MiG-29A, MiG-29S and Su-27 radars should all have same type twist-Cassegrain antennas.

-SK

In the manual, chapter 4, figure 3, it shows that the MiG-29S can engage two targets simultaneously. It also shows that it is a different type radar than the Su-27, using a different type antenna. As I understand it, the versions of the slotbacks used by the 29 and 27 are so similar as to be impossible to tell apart on the F-15 TEWS.

 

So, the questions are, can the 29S engage two targets and does the difference in radar antenna make no difference in the ability of TEWS to tell them apart? Or is the manual wrong?

Can you post a scan or photo of this page?

What about the difference in antennae?

The radar(N019M) of the MiG-29S(9-13S) has a cassegrain antenna like the "baseline" N019 and N001(of Su-27S/Su-27K).

But you are right that the radar table in the manual incorrectly states "slotted array" as the antenna type under N019M - there are also a couple of other specs that seem dubvious.

The N019M should, with the exception of an uprated main processor and support for the R-77, closely resemble the specifications of the baseline N019 - including the nature of antenna :) .

I suspect that it might be a case of a mix-up between the specifications for the N019M and a further modified version - called N019MP(of the MiG-29SMT).

Cheers,

- JJ.

Can you post a scan or photo of this page?

The "figure 3" Goya is refering to is not a photo of the radar, but a table of specifications for varies radars :) .

Cheers,

- JJ.

The "figure 3" Goya is refering to is not a photo of the radar, but a table of specifications for varies radars :) .

 

Cheers,

- JJ.

Ahh - for some reason I thought he was talking about the MiG29S flight manual.

Now it's much clearer :p

This is it. So, the LOMAC manual is wrong, I guess.

Could someone post a link with information that refutes the info in that chart? After looking at several sources, each one confirms the chart's information, with one hazy possible exception.

Could someone post a link with information that refutes the info in that chart? After looking at several sources, each one confirms the chart's information, with one hazy possible exception.

What sources Goya?

You can find hundreds of sources stating that the Su-33 can deploy guided air-to-ground ordinance.....doesnt make it correct though :)

Cheers,

- JJ.

What sources would you accept?

I'm not saying they are true, I just want to see something that indicates they are not true.

A well known Finish site states this:

"The SUV (OEPrNK-29E2) weapon system features N-109 pulse-doppler radar S-29 TOPAZ or its export version N-019E Rubin; NATO 'SLOT BACK'. The newer N-019/3A ZHUK RLPK-29E coherent multi-mode radar is integrated to the aircraft for later installations. The KOLS laser - IR rangefinder/homing head and the helmet sight complement the fire control system. The three-axis IR rangefinder is mounted inside a transparent dome on top of the nose forward of the cockpit and it comprises the directional laser rangefinder.

The RLPK-29 radar system includes S-29 lookdown - shootdown radar and Ts100.02-02 digital processor. Detection range to fighter targets is approximately 70 km in encounter situations and about 35 km in pursuit. The detection range to bomber targets is estimated to be double that to fighters. The radar is able to track 10 targets simultaneously and to engage one defined as the most dangerous by the processor. The scan capability covers ± 67 degrees in azimuth and +60/-38 degrees in elevation. The MiG-29S is equipped with the N-019M TOPAZ radar with higher jamming resistance and bigger processor facilitating lock-on to two targets with the AA-12 missiles. "

http://www.saunalahti.fi/~fta/ruaf-ap1.htm

Therefore, the N-019M of the MiG29S is not modelled correct in FC 1.11, cause it still lacks of the capabilitity to allow double-engagements simultaniously (real TWS with 2 R77 in flight)

So this 2 target capability has to do with the missile too. Not just a radar feature as it is only possible with the R-77.

If this is true and the 29S is changed it will be a real ownage machine :p

Another web site about the Algerian Air Forces states the double-engagement feature as well. My French is not that good, however I understood that much:

"Le radar du Mig-29S :

L’avantage du Mig-29S est son un radar NO-019M combiné à un nouveau système d’arme, qui permettent l’utilisation du nouveau missile autonome R-77 et des variantes longues portées des missiles R-27T/R qui sont les R-27TE et R-27RE.

Le N-019M permet la détection des cibles à 140Km et l'engagement de deux cibles simultanément à plus de 60km avec des missiles R-77 (4 missiles emportés), ou d'une cible à plus de 80km avec des missiles R-27ET/ER (2 missiles emportés). Le Mig-29S peut être équipé avec un large éventail de missiles air-air : R-27TE/RE (longue portée IR/radar), R-27T/R (moyenne portée IR/radar), R-60, R-73(courte portée IR) et R-77 (moyenne portée avec radar actif)."

http://membres.lycos.fr/algaf/mig29.htm

This is the key statement: "...et l'engagement de deux cibles simultanément à plus de 60km avec des missiles R-77... "

Your French source states that the Mig-29S can carry 4 R-77s, I guess the gus/girl who wrote that section played too much lomac, as the real-life mig-29S can carry up to 6 R-77 missiles (ie, all weapon pylons with r-77).

Or maybe it means that a normal load will consist of 4x r-77 and 2x R-27ER/ET

Could someone post a link with information that refutes the info in that chart? After looking at several sources, each one confirms the chart's information, with one hazy possible exception.

It's a common error. In all photos, you'll see that Zhuk has a slotted array, while Topaz has Cassegrain.

http://galeb.etf.bg.ac.yu/~lukija/razno/razno.html

http://grzdud.webpark.pl/galu2.htm

http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/archive/index.php?t-24497.html

I have some books that confirm it, but accurate web sources are few.

-SK

You are probably right, and even better: How about 8x R77 ?:

http://www.saunalahti.fi/~fta/MiG-29-2.htm

"The MiG-29S/SE/SD/SM "Fulcrum A" and "Fulcrum C":

Underwing missile hardpoints can be increased from the normal six (three on each wing) to eight, and all carry the new R-77 (AA-12 "Adder") active-radar long range air-to-air missile or a mix of air-to-ground missiles. In JDW (19Sep92, pg18) Waldenberg was quoted as saying that this MiG-29 improvement would allow for missiles like the R-27E (AA-10 "Alamo") which has 1.5 times the range of the basic model R-27 "Alamo" due to its larger rocket motor. These long-burn variants have previously been only found on the Su-27 Flanker. Waldenberg also could not say how many aircraft would be produced, but he did confirm that the 48 delivered MiG-29S aircraft would remain in operational units of the Russian Air Force. He went on to say that he was constantly marketing the upgrade package."

You are probably right, and even better: How about 8x R77 ?:

 

http://www.saunalahti.fi/~fta/MiG-29-2.htm

 

"The MiG-29S/SE/SD/SM "Fulcrum A" and "Fulcrum C":

Underwing missile hardpoints can be increased from the normal six (three on each wing) to eight, and all carry the new R-77 (AA-12 "Adder") active-radar long range air-to-air missile or a mix of air-to-ground missiles. In JDW (19Sep92, pg18) Waldenberg was quoted as saying that this MiG-29 improvement would allow for missiles like the R-27E (AA-10 "Alamo") which has 1.5 times the range of the basic model R-27 "Alamo" due to its larger rocket motor. These long-burn variants have previously been only found on the Su-27 Flanker. Waldenberg also could not say how many aircraft would be produced, but he did confirm that the 48 delivered MiG-29S aircraft would remain in operational units of the Russian Air Force. He went on to say that he was constantly marketing the upgrade package."

Many statements made it to print without oversight in 1992, while businessmen of a certain nationality were just beginning to discover "marketing". Photos printed in the past 14 years since, e.g. of MiG-1.42 "stealthier than F/A-22", tell a somewhat different story.

-SK

So this 2 target capability has to do with the missile too. Not just a radar feature as it is only possible with the R-77.

If this is true and the 29S is changed it will be a real ownage machine :p

Yep - a SARH missile needs an STT lock to home, and you can't get an STT lock on two aircraft at once. Not with a conventional mechanically scanned radar, anyway.

Dual-target engagement capability is tricky.

It's still not clear if there's a true dual-target engagement capability (i.e. from a subtly different TWS mode), or whether it means you fire once, wait for missile to go active, unlock, relock, and fire again. You have two missiles in the air at once, for separate targets - so you are technically engaging two targets at once.

A website isn't really accurate enough information for this.

From SwingKid's links:

I have to admit that pic leaves me a little perplexed.

That one, however shows the cassegrain antenna pretty clearly. However the two pics don't seem to be showing the same radar.

http://galeb.etf.bg.ac.yu/~lukija/razno/fazo.html

Says Topaz can attack two targets at the same time. (table 2)

http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/arc...p?t-24497.html

The MiG-29S also incorporated an uprated Phazotron-NIIR N019M TOPAZ X-band cassegrain radar, with an improved Ts-101M weapons computer which extended the MiG-29’s original N019 SLOT BACK system’s capabilities to twin target engagement at up to 74 km.

Which leads to:

This was successfully tested from November 16, 1995, in flight trails with an llyushim II-78 MIDAS tanker, and completed in a few months later. Full N019M1 TOPAZ radar uprating then led the way to third-phase integration of the medium-range active radar-homing AMRAAM –type Vympel R-77/E RVV-AE (AA-12 ADDER) air to air missile, with integrated ECCM.

A few sites have led me to think that the R-77 was not compatible with the N-019M radar until it was upgraded to the N-019M1. Do we have a hybrid radar in the LOMAC MiG29-S?

A well known Finish site states this:

 

"The SUV (OEPrNK-29E2) weapon system features N-109 pulse-doppler radar S-29 TOPAZ or its export version N-019E Rubin; NATO 'SLOT BACK'. The newer N-019/3A ZHUK RLPK-29E coherent multi-mode radar is integrated to the aircraft for later installations. The KOLS laser - IR rangefinder/homing head and the helmet sight complement the fire control system. The three-axis IR rangefinder is mounted inside a transparent dome on top of the nose forward of the cockpit and it comprises the directional laser rangefinder.

 

The RLPK-29 radar system includes S-29 lookdown - shootdown radar and Ts100.02-02 digital processor. Detection range to fighter targets is approximately 70 km in encounter situations and about 35 km in pursuit. The detection range to bomber targets is estimated to be double that to fighters. The radar is able to track 10 targets simultaneously and to engage one defined as the most dangerous by the processor. The scan capability covers ± 67 degrees in azimuth and +60/-38 degrees in elevation. The MiG-29S is equipped with the N-019M TOPAZ radar with higher jamming resistance and bigger processor facilitating lock-on to two targets with the AA-12 missiles. "

 

http://www.saunalahti.fi/~fta/ruaf-ap1.htm

Sorry Raven, but the above quote is is so full of errors that it isnt even funny.....well it is actually :biggrin: .

Therefore, the N-019M of the MiG29S is not modelled correct in FC 1.11, cause it still lacks of the capabilitity to allow double-engagements simultaniously (real TWS with 2 R77 in flight)

Right....LOL.

Cheers,

- JJ.

Dual-target engagement capability is tricky.

It's still not clear if there's a true dual-target engagement capability (i.e. from a subtly different TWS mode), or whether it means you fire once, wait for missile to go active, unlock, relock, and fire again. You have two missiles in the air at once, for separate targets - so you are technically engaging two targets at once.

 

A website isn't really accurate enough information for this.

I will interpret this as that you can launch on two targets simultaneously without the 'going active' separation.

From SwingKid's links:

I have to admit that pic leaves me a little perplexed.

 

That one, however shows the cassegrain antenna pretty clearly. However the two pics don't seem to be showing the same radar.

Yes they do :) . The top photo shows the radar with its protective covers(including the antenna cover), while the bottom one shows it "naked" :) .

[snip]

A few sites have led me to think that the R-77 was not compatible with the N-019M radar until it was upgraded to the M-019M1. Do we have a hybrid radar in the LOMAC MiG29-S?

R-77 compatibility is basically what the N019M modification was all about - the "dual engagement capability"(which in its true form would involve changes to the SNP mode) on the other hand is more of a hazy item, and may not have been realised from the start.

Cheers,

- JJ.