Black Shark I don't want to wait

Pardon my ignorance. What has M-60 to Ka-50 ? :icon_weed

Yes...but the 7.62X39 failed to penetrate the first lightly armored surface at an even shorter range than that at which the 5.56X45 round was going right through both surfaces easily.

 

They did disspell a negative myth about the AK-47 though. There has been a myth around for a while that the AK-47 sacrificed accuracy in favor of durability. The Marines found that to be exactly that...a myth. They actually found that the AK-47 is frighteningly accurate, by doing their own testing on small objects such as cigarettes.

Why are we comparing AK47 and M-16 today anyway?

That comparison was interesting during early Vietnam war, when US transitioned from the 7,62 (x39 or x51) M-14/AK47/G3 age to the small 5,56 projectile by introducing M-16A1.

The red side of the world followed later with the 5.56 AK74.

The time setting of LO for example is already 20 years ago and at that time AK47/7,62 had already become a "3rd world weapon", while Combloc was using AK74.

Didn´t anyone of you play OFP?:icon_wink

The M-16 was designed to take heads off at 500+yards.

The AK was designed as a supression weapon, much like the M-60, only lighter.

Didn´t anyone of you play OFP?:icon_wink

M16 5.56mm Semiautomatic Rifle

M4 5.56mm Carbine

The M16 Assault Rifle is the standard issue shoulder weapon in the US military. It marks a departure from normal ballistics in that it uses a smaller, high-velocity round (5.56 mm caliber vs. 7.62 mm). This results in a smaller and lighter weapon as well as smaller ammunition, significantly decreasing combat load.

The M-16 was effective at ranges of less than 400-460 meters, the range within which United States experiences in World War II and Korea had indicated that small arms engagements would occur. The weapon permitted the heavily burdened soldier to maintain the same degree of firepower at a reduced weight. And finally, the M-16 allowed every soldier to have an automatic fire capability whenever the situation required it, while the weapon's lighter ammunition facilitated battlefield resupply in greater quantities, enabling the resupply of field units for longer periods of time.

While the M16 possessed less "stopping power" than the M14. But it was more accurate due to the reduction in recoil stemming from the smaller proiectile fired. Both the M16Al and the AK-47 rifles were judged far more effective than the M14 in terms of expected casualties per combat load. In general, they produced two times the number of combat casualties that could be produced by the M14. Thus there was clear evidence of military utility in the M16 rifle, resulting in an increased degree of military advantage accruing to its user.

Rifle squads consist of a rifle squad leader and eight soldiers. The rifle squad leader is the senior tactical leader of the squad and controls the squad's movement and fires. He conducts squad training and maintains the squad's ability to conduct tactical missions successfully. Each infantry squad is further organized into two 4-man fire teams consisting of a team leader, a grenadier, and an automatic rifleman. The fourth member within each fire team is either the squad's antitank specialist or the squad's designated marksman. The fire team leader is a fighting leader and leads his team by example. The fire team leader controls the movement of his team and the placement of fires against enemy soldiers. He assists the squad leader as required. The infantry squad fights by fire teams and buddy teams.

Firepower is the capacity of a unit to deliver effective fires on a target. Firepower kills or suppresses the enemy in his positions, deceives the enemy, and supports maneuver. Without effective supporting fires the infantry cannot maneuver. Before attempting to maneuver, units must establish a base of fire. A base of fire is placed on an enemy force or position to reduce or eliminate the enemy's ability to interfere with friendly maneuver elements. Leaders must know how to control, mass, and combine fire with maneuver. They must identify the most critical targets quickly, direct fires onto them, and ensure that the volume of fires is sufficient to keep the enemy from returning fire effectively, and the unit from expending ammunition needlessly.

The M16A1/M16A2 rifle is the most common weapon fired in built-up areas. The M16A1/M16A2 rifle and the M249 are used to kill enemy personnel, to suppress enemy fire and observation, and to penetrate light cover. Leaders can use 5.56-mm tracer fire to designate targets for other weapons. Close combat is the predominant characteristic of urban engagements. Riflemen must be able to hit small, fleeting targets from bunker apertures, windows, and loopholes. This requires pinpoint accuracy with weapons fired in the semiautomatic mode. Killing an enemy through an 8-inch loophole at a range of 50 meters is a challenge, but one that may be common in combat in built-up areas.

When fighting inside buildings, three-round bursts or rapid semiautomatic fire should be used. To suppress defenders while entering a room, a series of rapid three-round bursts should be fired at all identified targets and likely enemy positions. This is more effective than long bursts or spraying the room with automatic fire. Soldiers should fire from an underarm or shoulder position; not from the hip. When targets reveal themselves in buildings, the most effective engagement is the quick-fire technique with the weapon up and both eyes open. Accurate quick fire not only kills enemy soldiers but also gives the attacker fire superiority.

Within built-up areas, burning debris, reduced ambient light, strong shadow patterns of varying density, and smoke all limit the effect of night vision and sighting devices. The use of aiming stakes in the defense and of the pointing technique in the offense, both using three-round bursts, are night firing skills required of all infantrymen. The individual laser aiming light can sometimes be used effectively with night vision goggles. Any soldier using NVG should be teamed with at least one soldier not wearing them.

The penetration that can be achieved with a 5.56-mm round depends on the range to the target and the type of material being fired against. The M16A2 and M249 achieve greater penetration than the older M16A1, but only at longer ranges. At close range, both weapons perform the same. Single 5.56-mm rounds are not effective against structural materials (as opposed to partitions) when fired at close range—the closer the range, the less the penetration.

For the 5.56-mm round, maximum penetration occurs at 200 meters. At ranges less then 25 meters, penetration is greatly reduced. At 10 meters, penetration by the M16 round is poor due to the tremendous stress placed on this high-speed round, which causes it to yaw upon striking a target. Stress causes the projectile to break up, and the resulting fragments are often too small to penetrate.

Even with reduced penetration at short ranges, interior walls made of thin wood paneling, sheetrock, or plaster are no protection against 5.56-mm rounds. Common office furniture such as desks and chairs cannot stop these rounds, but a layer of books 18 to 24 inches thick can. Wooden frame buildings and single cinder block walls offer little protection from 5.56-mm rounds. When clearing such structures, soldiers must ensure that friendly casualties do not result from rounds passing through walls, floors, or ceilings.

Armor-piercing rounds are slightly more effective than ball ammunition in penetrating urban targets at all ranges. They are more likely to ricochet than ball ammunition, especially when the target presents a high degree of obliquity.

The following common barriers in built-up areas stop a 5.56-mm round fired at less than 50 meters:

• One thickness of sandbags.
  
• A 2-inch concrete wall (unreinforced).
  
• A 55-gallon drum filled with water or sand.
  
• A small ammunition can filled with sand.
  
• A cinder block filled with sand (block will probably shatter).
  
• A plate glass windowpane at a 45-degree angle (glass fragments will be thrown behind the glass).
  
• A brick veneer.
  
• A car body (an M16A1/M16A2 rifle penetrates but normally will not exit).

Although most structural materials repel single 5.56-mm rounds, continued and concentrated firing can breach some typical urban structures. The best method for breaching a masonarywall is by firing short bursts (three to five rounds) in a U-shaped pattern. The distance from the gunner to the wall should be minimized for best results—ranges as close as 25 meters are relatively safe from ricochet. Ballistic eye protection, protective vest, and helmet should be worn.

Ball ammunition and armor-piercing rounds produce almost the same results, but armor-piercing rounds are more likely to fly back at the firer. The 5.56-mm round can be used to create either a loophole (about 7 inches in diameter) or a breach hole (large enough for a man to enter). When used against reinforced concrete, the M16 rifle and M249 cannot cut the reinforcing bars.

Source: http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/ground/m16.htm

no need for a source, all you have to do is look at the design. Look at the selector switch...its safe, auto, singleshot. It has a full auto feature. You only make weapons like that for keepin heads down not accuracy!!!

no need for a source, all you have to do is look at the design. Look at the selector switch...its safe, auto, singleshot. It has a full auto feature. You only make weapons like that for keepin heads down not accuracy!!!

And the switch doesn't remove any accuracy...

I'd rather have auto than burst in a tight situation.

Yup...the M-16 is definitely no long-range sniper rifle, but its very effective in the range its intended to be used in. Besides...at anything too much further than about 200-300 yards, its capabilities are starting to exceed the physical capabilities of the guy firing it. ;)

That said, however...SS109 specs require perforation of 0.125" thick steel plate at 600 meters.

And the switch doesn't remove any accuracy...

I'd rather have auto than burst in a tight situation.

That statement is both right and wrong.:D Technically, you are correct, the accuracy of the weapon itself doesn't change. However, it makes it impossible to keep your alignment when firing it. So...when employed by a human operator, burst and auto both adversely affect the accuracy. ;)

Yup...the M-16 is definitely no long-range sniper rifle, but its very effective in the range its intended to be used in. Besides...at anything too much further than about 200-300 yards, its capabilities are starting to exceed the physical capabilities of the guy firing it. ;)

 

That said, however...SS109 specs require perforation of 0.125" thick steel plate at 600 meters.

M16A2 has max effective range of 550m for point targets and 800 meters for area targets. Not sure how this has been tested though... a 5.56 bullets energy should be quite low at 800 meters.

*bah*

That statement is both right and wrong.:D Technically, you are correct, the accuracy of the weapon itself doesn't change. However, it makes it impossible to keep your alignment when firing it. So...when employed by a human operator, burst and auto both adversely affect the accuracy. ;)

Many assault weapons have automatic fire modes. Such as the standard weapon of the swedish armed forces, the AK-5 (a modified FNC 80).

And yeah, it's still very accurate.

Heh...yeah, you're right, and the AK-47 has already been proven (by my brother) to be quite an accurate weapon. :D

There was a interesting show on discovery channel that compared these two rifles and they actually showed a M-16 and a Ak bullet being fired at a concrete block. While the M-16 bullet just produced a round dent, the ak split the whole block in half. They also showed the two bullets being fired at wooden blocks. The ak bullet penetrated while the m-16 failed to penetrate.

1. Reliability. AK-47 was much more reliable weapon. Period.

2. Range. Most engagements occured at close range where AK-47 larger calibar and better penetration was more important then precission.

M-16 was just a wrong weapon at that time and conflict.

I say they were designed primarily as grazing weapons because that is what I would do with a full auto weapon like that. At longer distances its easier to hit objects in single fire than it would as a fully automatic. Everyone knows you cant even clear out a phone booth with an uzi.

Now granted that the AK is an accurate weapon, personally I think its better a weapon intended to keep heads down because of its higher rate of fire (simply because its impossible to keep it still). The 3 round burst in the M-16a2 was modified to save ammunition.

As far as sayin that the M-16 is accurate past 500 yards...I have to say otherwise because I practically grew up with that weapon. I HATE THE M16 with a PASSION!!! But it is still pretty accurate if you get a properly zero'ed in gun. I managed to get 7 out of 10 hits on the 500 yard line on my last rifle qual. If I remember my last rifle score it was in the neighborhood of 52 out of a possible 60. (magazine fed improperly at the 100 yard line, lost 1 round, gunjam immediately afterwards, lost another 2 rounds...). Imagine if I had been holding a Winchester .300 bolt action I wouldnt have had them problems. Stupid M-16a2...runed my stupid perfect score.

The thing about the AK I thought I had it written...but it was the flaw I was trying to point out. The selector switch goes from safe, full auto, singleshot. Because of this I believe it was intended for supression first and accuracy second.

The gears in my car go from:

Neutral - Reverse, 1st 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th

Just because Reverse is the gear next to neutral doesnt mean I use that always and before 1st gear...

The thing about the AK I thought I had it written...but it was the flaw I was trying to point out. The selector switch goes from safe, full auto, singleshot. Because of this I believe it was intended for supression first and accuracy second.

I'd say that it's a difference in philosophy, the M-16 makers thought that single shot would be used more than auto/burst so they put the single shot mode first, the Ak-47 maker thought about what mode you'd want first in a close range life and death situation.

SKANDAL!!!

SKANDAL!!!

Sorry... the thread has sort of been hijacked :(

With the help of an ak-47 and an m-16 :p

With the help of an ak-47 and an m-16 :p

ok to end the stupidity of the m-16 vs the ak...(3/4's of it on my part...)the AK is the weapon of choice. Personally I think it was a stupid move to go from the M-14 to the -16. And I better not hear any arguments over that either!!! Or else...

Hehe...I know its counter-intuitive due to the relative sizes of the projectiles, but yes, the M-16 DOES, in fact, have more armor penetration ability than the AK-47. Neither a concrete block, nor a wood block reacts in the same way as armor. ;) US Marines of the 1/23 in Iraq tested this on a HMMWV. At about 30 yards, the AK round failed to go all the way through even the near door. The M-16 round was going through the near door, through the vehicle, and through the far door at distances of 50 yards and further.

Hmmmm, it's the vehicle, buy a Dutck Fennek

Well. the AK47 and M16 killed enough people, so there accurate enough

As for the Mig 29 the Luftwaffe lost only one plane in their operational time!!!